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The
Matrix as Messiah Movie - Book V From the Warner Brothers Forums Part Five of the Discussion See Cecil Copeland's Site for the other threads. Direct links can be found here or here Alt links can be found below (they don't lead where they say) cecilc posted 05-12-99 02:12 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, everyone! Part V of this thread opens today! Here are the addresses of the first four installaments! The Original: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000052.html For Part II: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000750.html For Part III: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000855.html For Book IV: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/000930.html Welcome all! ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com cecilc posted 05-12-99 02:19 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- We're rollin' now! Here's the address of this Book! For Book V: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/001045.html I believe that this time I got all the link addressess right! The minds and ideas that have been driving this thread just continue to amaze me! Cecil ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com ControlX posted 05-12-99 02:47 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- hi Cecilc, I am glad you did this, I tried to post here before but can't seem to get through. My question is this, If the Messiah is a person, then the anti-Christ has to be a person too, right? Someone told me 'it' could be something within us, some other said is like in those movies, giant asteroids and 500 ft. tidal waves are to end the human race, and this other peson said the problems Y2k could bring are merely 1% that of the real anti-Christ. so who is the anti-Christ? Just wondering if anyone have thoughts on this. 12321 posted 05-12-99 03:21 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- One favor if I may... Posters: The wide-body effect now appearing in several threads is due to typing long strings of characters without spaces. An abbreviated example would be: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: There's gotta be a way to make your point without extending the margins and inconveniencing everyone else. ----- ----- ----- End of trivial request ----- ----- ----- Cecil: Absolutely! Layers upon layers of meaning present in the literal interpretation. At the other end of the spectrum, the fourth level of meaning supposedly has 70 layers of encrypted information. [each layer a different method of encryption... from a technical perspective, the most sophisticated document ever created... story goes, it's not just an account of creation, but the very means by which the creation was accomplished... think about that one... gives new meaning to the Word made flesh, eh?] ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com 12321 posted 05-12-99 03:46 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- jim: Well said. I hope you plan on adding more to the discussion. And welcome ControlX. Did you find that other answer [not the Anti-Christ one] you were looking for in one of the past threads? If not, email me and I'll pinpoint it for you. Cecil: Forgot to mention... As you and Jim stated, there's plenty of temporary discomfort to be found in the literal interpretation as well. Reading my post, it seems as if I wasn't acknowledging that fact. Thanks to both of you for filling in my blanks. And btw, I like how you phrased it: "When Neo actually found out the "truth" of his existence, didn't he find that a bit discomforting?" Let's see... "No. I don't believe it. It's not possible.... Stop. Let me out. Let me out. I want out." [barf, pass out] Yeah, a bit discomforting... but worth it! ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com cecilc posted 05-13-99 05:00 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ControlX,... Glad you finally got through! I think if you read back through the previous thread (Book IV), you'll find that we've equated the AI in this film to the persona of Satan/anti-Christ. That is, after all, the entity that Neo (as Christ) will be battling for "control". As for the real world,....??? Mike,... You wrote "...not just an account of creation, but the very means by which the creation was accomplished..." That's not only incredible, that's a little bit scary! And what is this from again?! I'd like to see that. And speaking of uncomfortable truth,...have you ever perceived from the Book a "truth" that gave you that feeling of discomfort, but still felt like the truth?! ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com Mposible posted 05-13-99 05:10 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- As The Matrix for me symbolises the process we each go thru when we finally decide to wake up to the truth of our existance and the ilusions we live within, I find it very significant that Neo wakes up into a world of nuclear winter. When each of us wakes up and begins to create our own reality rather than buying into the old victum based melodrama we are use to, we enter a desert, a waste land, a time when we are lost and totally alone to face our fears. Anyone else see this thread? ------------------ Nothing is Mposible 12321 posted 05-13-99 08:50 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mposible: I'm not sure what you mean by "the old [victim] based melodrama we are use to." And as for "a time when we are lost and totally alone to face our fears," that just doesn't happen unless one rejects the notion of a Source, you know, God. [and from your 051399 5:00 AM post in the Experiment for open minded and creating the new millennium thread, I'd say you don't reject that notion] I like your idea of projecting love [expressed in that other thread] and will join the effort [in my own way] at the specified time. Cecil: That comes from the Source. [according to Jewish sages] I first read of it in Jeffrey Satinover's "Cracking the Bible Code." Short version: Moses comes down off the mountain with three things [there's that 3 again]: The Ten Commandments, the written Torah, and the oral Torah. The written Torah was 304,805 contiguous Hebrew characters. [no spaces or punctuation] Think of THAT as a single word -- The Word. [play THAT off the beginning of John's Gospel] The oral Torah provided some specific explanations not included in the written part. It's an absolutely amazing story that's breaking as we speak. The account on my site is crude and very incomplete but you can find a few more details there in the Torah Code section. Thanks to a series of visions I have a fairly strong grasp of the subject and really should spend more time developing the details on my site. Please ask any question you might have. In answering, it will help me to find words to explain it to others. [or you can just read the book and try to figure it out for yourself] Re: one of those uncomfortable details... Mark 13:48-52 ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com jim w posted 05-13-99 09:13 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howdy! (I think I'm required to say that because I'm from Texas?) Last night I finally caught up on the posts to this 5-part thread (whew!) Brilliant stuff, folks! I said "wow" out loud several times! I had done a packed summary of "The Matrix" as a Christian allegory. It really belongs here - and I'd love to post it - but it is too long :-( But - Cecil generously featured the writeup on his site! My thanks, Cecil! So, I invite you to take a look on Cecil's site: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix (3rd page, see "The Movie 'The Matrix' Viewed Allegorically") A caveat or three: 1. It was written to a personal friend, not to the general public, so the tone is very direct. (But that makes it more fun to read, eh?) 2. Many of you have elaborated on, and much IMPROVED on, the same perspectives (tracer, MichaelH, MatthewDay, cecil, skocko, OnFyre, and more.too many folks to credit here; BRILLIANT stuff again!) 3. I've seen the movie since and could easily quadruple that essay now. My perfectionist side is screaming, but I'll let it be...for now ;-) Any comments welcome. If you wish, send to: jim.wyatt@gmf.org What are your opinions on the "born again" Christian angle making a more solid allegory than the "Messiah" Christian theme in this movie? -jw cecilc posted 05-13-99 09:44 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike,... Is that Mark 13 or Mark 14? Mark 13 only goes to verse 37. But I can see the mystery in Mark 14:48-52. I'll have to find a copy of that book! Thanks for the info on it! Cecil ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com cecilc posted 05-13-99 09:51 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mposible,... "....we enter a desert, a waste land, a time when we are lost and totally alone to face our fears." Man, that's where I was BEFORE I took that red pill! Not after! Cecil ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com 12321 posted 05-13-99 10:09 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep! Yer right, Cecil... 14:48-52 it is. Sorry for the confusion. As for Mposible's place... When I was shown certain things back in '88, I was so distraught that I wanted to die -- to literally die, and suicide DID cross my mind, but it was made clear that THAT would be the absolutely WORST thing I could do. It was the most unpleasant experience of my life. Maybe that's what Mposible is getting at. [is that something like it, Mposible?] And btw, I thank God for that experience back in '88. jim: Work to do. Will reply later. ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com *petra* posted 05-13-99 11:12 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bravo, Jim! That is EXACTLY how I interpreted the film allegorically. The Messiah symbolism never seemed to hold up as consistently (at least with me) as much as the concept of a regular person becoming a Christian. Here's another parallel. Neo, of course, is an anagram for "one." Luke 15:4 says, "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it?" Like the shepherd, Morpheus was obsessed with finding the "one" lost sheep to the point of even putting the other sheep (his crew) at risk. Whoa! It is the allegory that you speak of that hits such a personal chord with me and gets me so pumped! I was unplugged in October of 1980. --Petra Simplex posted 05-13-99 01:18 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as though I am amoung friends...Yet another one of the topics I've been reading in the Book and discussing with the Man that was protrayed in the Movie - How he said that 1. It is not good that man be alone 2. One can put a thousand to flight - two Ten Thousand. 3. When two agree upon anything (in my name) it shall be done. How do these relate?... It took Trinity's expressing her faith in Neo being the "one" because it fell in line with her message from the Oracle. Together they believed he had the "power" to defeat the AI. I'm beginning to realize the importance of "couplehood" as it relates to the giftings and authority we've been given once we realize the "desert of real" and take the red pill! jim w posted 05-13-99 01:51 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Petra - thanks! Both for the compliment and especially for your insight on 'seeking the one' - that's what I mean about people blowing me away with even deeper stuff! grace, jw jim.wyatt@gmf.org jim w posted 05-13-99 02:29 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There's a fascinating bit of irony at the beginning of the movie: When we first meet Neo, we learn he is a "hacker". Talk about a 'bake your noodle' circle: Neo THINKS that he is hacking into computer systems, when actually computer systems are RUNNING HIS ENTIRE WORLD - even allowing him the illusion that he is 'hacking', if that's what it takes to pacify him! Scary - that the 'prison' itself allows some 'illusionary escapes' to keep the prisoners oblivious to the nature of the real problem! Digging further to look at this allegorically from several angles, (especially from the 'lost person becomes Christian' strand): 1. Even when a lost person thinks he is 'conquering' his world, the fallen world system as a whole has him in it's grip - "The Matrix has you!". Reminds me of the 'rich fool' in Luke 12:20 who focused on his survival in this temporary world, but failed to ensure the survival of his eternal soul. 2. Neo tries to overcome what he increasingly senses is a corrupt world with his own little 'hacks' into the system - but THE system completely envelopes every aspect of Neo's life. It is not until Neo comes into the Truth that he finds the power to overcome the Matrix environment. Similarly, Satan loves to keep lost people thinking that they are making a difference with good works, political changes, etc. - "hacking" away at the evils in the world and in our own selves. But no man can conquer sin and the world system with his own willpower or natural abilities. (Even if "Neo" became a body- builder in the Matrix, his true body still had atrophied muscle!) A man has to come into the Truth - like Neo unplugging from the matrix, or a lost person turning toward Christ - in order to overcome personal sin and a fallen world via God's power. 3. Neo's "hacks" can also be foreshadowing of his destiny to effectively attack the Matrix later. In the same way, a person who begins to dislike a fallen, sinful world, but comes to life in Christ, will eventually be part of that victorious time when Christ destroys the fallen world and makes all things new. (goose bumps ) Two posts ago, I referred to a paper where I allegorize Neo primarily as 'sinner coming to Christ' and secondarily as a 'Christ-type' - a double allegory in one movie! Switching over to the "Neo as Christ" perspective for a moment, the foreshadowing works here as well: Christ's casting out a few demons is nothing compared to His clean-sweep ending in Revelation! (more goose bumps ) 4. Of course, hacking was illegal. Choi and pals don't exactly seem like 'good moral company', either. Again, this strengthens the portrayal of Neo beginning as 'sinner' in the primary allegory. jim.wyatt@gmf.org ControlX posted 05-13-99 03:11 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- cecilc, So A.I.is the Anti..... yes, makes a lot of sense, and that itself refers to many different symbolism in the real world. thanks. ;-) tracer posted 05-13-99 03:23 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo!!! Book Five and full steam ahead! I have nothing to share, other than to say I am following along (from a distance) and enjoying the ride. Great posts by all; keep it coming! ------------------ "It's the question that drives us..." *petra* posted 05-13-99 10:12 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim, your point about the "world being pulled over our eyes" as having built-in mechanisms to make the prisoners think they are emancipating themselves is very insightful. Out of respect for Warner Bros. I'll be cryptic about this, but did you all watch you-know-what last Sunday night? Agent S. and Agent M. were drugged by the spores of a gigantic underground organism, which caused its victims to hallucinate and not realize they were pulled underground and slowly digested. Both Agent S. and Agent M. had very real experiences of trying to solve the case of the disappearance of another couple and of their own escape from the organism. Toward the end of the show, both agents were sitting in front of Director S. and presented their findings on the case. Agent M. says that there was something that was really bothering him about the whole thing. He couldn't understand how they could have escaped. He basically said that the power of a mind altering substance is going to be much stronger than a simple awareness that could ever "will" you into sobriety. It was then that he said he believed they were still underground and that they both were still hallucinating. Agent S. and Director S. said he was crazy. Agent M. said he would prove it and he pulled his gun and shot Director S! Well, it turned out they were still hallucinating and the next scene you see lots of G Men combing this mountain side trying to find them. A hand was poking up through some peat mossy soil, and someone saw that and pulled both of them to safety. The parallel is that organism's poisonous spores allowed for the victim to be aware of part of the truth -- that they were initially captured. But the victims would also create an ellaborate scenario of escaping, which rendered them more complacent probably then if they were just semi-conscious. As you pointed out, the Matrix allowed for the same delusion as does our real world. Those of us that think we are free, how do we know that we are free? Another really interesting thing to think about is in the show I was just talking about, in The Matrix, and in Plato's Allegory of the Cave -- all the victims/prisoners had to be rescued. This emancipation did not result from their own efforts or corrective thinking. They all had to respond to the rescue in some way, i.e. taking the red pill, pushing one's hand up through the soil, walking out of the darkened cave. But the response was separate from the rescue. Interesting parallels to real life, hmm? 12321 posted 05-14-99 07:35 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- jim: Your take on the primary allegory took me by surprise. I'd not considered that angle, but once I adjusted my reference frame to approximate yours, the elements came into focus. It holds water. Wonderful work. Since you've read all the Messiah threads, you probably noticed that I'm coming at this from an unusual direction. From the place I stood while reading your letter on Cecil's web page, I could understand how you'd discount the Messiah parallel and REALLY have problems with the Second Coming concept. That one movie can generate these three distinct parallels speaks volumes. Layers of meaning within a single story. Personal interpretation depends on one's point of view -- the place from which one's feet are planted. Call that a point of reference. Add to that the window through which one peers from that point -- through the layers of learned and preconceived notions -- and the frame of reference is more or less defined. It's like what was shown in a vision I once had... Think of this movie as a three dimensional object. I read Cecil's take, and to see what he's seeing I get up and move to the seat next to his. From here, say, 5th row center, his perspective comes into focus. I see his point and I love it, but... Then you speak up and I think wow, that's cool, and I find you in what many consider the best seats in the house. Let's say 17th row center. Ah, I see your point, but... I know that neither of you has really seen what I have 'cause I was sitting over there. And the reaction's gonna be pretty uniform: "Who'd wanna sit all the way off to one side in the front row?" Yeah, I know, just about the last place anyone would choose to sit. So, the purpose of this post isn't to say, "Please come see what I see." I completely understand why most everyone avoids my perspective. I enjoy the sharing and learning from you and others. I just wanted you to understand why and how I can agree with you and Cecil and still hold to my own conclusions. Does that make sense? ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com jim w posted 05-14-99 09:39 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Petra: Petra sez: "How do we know if we are free?" If I had to give a quick answer. 'Because we can SEE the Matrix - like resurrected Neo in the hallway at film's end - AND overcome it!' ('we are not ignorant of his schemes') Petra sez: "They all had to respond to the rescue in some way." - Ah.the key to John 10:9's 'door'! Good stuff. Simplex: I agree re: the importance of company! When I administrate missions work overseas, I always pair people up for those very purposes. Check out how many times 'one another' is used in the New Testament. Nice 'Matrix' observation! Skocko: Thanks! (You are in the front row? I thought you were the dude behind me throwing the popcorn.) Yes, I have read your views, and can see bits of that angle. Too much of a stretch for me, maybe. You seem to be more of a mystic, and there are definite gems in those forests - but sitting in the front row upside down wearing infrared 3-D glasses gives me a headache! Seriously, I've enjoyed your flavors in this thread, and I like seeing things through different eyes. (Maybe I'll come down there sometime and share my Milk Duds! Warning: Speaking of eyes, Tracer is watching this message! eerie, eh? [Image] Oops.gotta power down.I hear a squiddy in the hall. jim.wyatt@gmf.org tracer posted 05-14-99 10:23 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 12321: Yes! And I am sure there are more parallels yet to be discovered! Truth cannot be comprehended from a single perspective; the perspective from which we look at things reveals some aspects of Truth but obscures others. ---- jim w: Here are some excerpts from previous posts that may help to develop your interpretation. MatthewDay Member posted 04-17-99 05:43 PM <<Another interesting topic - being born again... Each of the rebels essentially had to choose to be "unplugged" from the matrix and born again into the real world.>> Tracer Member posted 04-18-99 04:39 PM <<Been thinking about the significance of water (as mentioned in another thread). Could Neo's plunge into the water tank following his expulsion from the pod contain some baptismal references? Building from MatthewDay's comment...to me, the critical moment is the decision to take the red vs blue pill. A conscious decision to follow the Truth or accept the Lie. The act of taking the pill itself has overtones of communion to it, although I don't believe that is intended. Also, once the decision is made, it is irreversible. Similar to the "seal" placed on a believer by the Holy Spirit following acceptance of the Savior.>> Tracer Member posted 04-19-99 07:50 PM <<Somewhere it is mentioned in the film that Neo has been searching for Morpheus for the last couple of years, while Morpheus has been searching for Neo his whole life. If we view Neo as the person rather than the One, and Morpheus as God the Father, we have a nice metaphor for the relationship between God and man. God desires to have a relationship with us, from before we were born even. He is reaching out to us our whole lives. When we seek God, he will reveal himself to us. "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened..." Notice how Morpheus first contacted Neo (through Trinity, the Spirit) rather than the other way around. This was done via the computer screen when Neo is first introduced. "Wake up, Neo! The Matrix has you!" Translated, "wake up, sin has you!" God reaches out to us first. It is interesting that this scene is followed by "Knock, knock...", then the door to Neo's apartment is opened. This moment is critical because the invitation is extended to Neo to join the group, and thus "follow the white rabbit." It is this decision that paves the way for Neo to eventually establish a relationship with Morpheus. When Christ knocks on the door to our hearts, he follows with an invitation to "follow him"! If we do, we will enter into a relationship with the Father.>> Tracer Member posted 04-26-99 07:44 PM <<Consider the scene where Neo is at the office and the agents come looking for him. Morpheus, via the cell phone which arrives just in the nick of time, provides Neo a means of escape through the window to the scaffolding. A metaphor for God's promise to always provide a means of escape from temptation. Sin (the agents) often "comes for us" when we least expect it. God promises a way out. This "escape route" may be difficult, it may require faith, and it may come at the last minute. Neo had the will but not the faith. He was afraid of falling. The result was that he surrendered to the agents and experienced the consequences (the interrogation scene). What often keeps us from avoiding temptation is our own fear of falling; we convince ourselves we are not able to resist and expect ourselves to fail. We stop listening to God and concentrate on our own weaknesses, just as Neo dropped the phone (his communication line with Morpheus), took his focus off the scaffolding, and turned his eyes downward to the street. I guess the scaffolding could represent the Word. If we surrender to sin, the consequences will be painful (if not to our body, then to our soul). Sin will "infect" us like a bug, separating us from God. Just as Neo had to be debugged before he could see Morpheus, we must be cleansed of sin to enter into the righteousness of a holy god.>> ------------------ "It's the question that drives us..." jim w posted 05-14-99 11:01 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tracer, thanks for the refresh! Awesome sleuthing going on there, and a ton of truth! Meanwhile, serving up more "Matrix" parallels: When Neo wakes up and 'unplugs' from the Matrix, the machines consider him a 'defective' battery unit, and flush him like sewage. Morpheus and crew pluck drowning Neo and lift him into the light. Here's how that sequence resonates for me: 1. The Matrix considering Neo 'defective': - [The lost] think it strange that you do not plunge WITH them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you (1 Pet. 4:4). "What?" said the lemmings, "you're not going to run over this cliff with us?" 2. The Matrix flushing Neo like sewage: 'the world has hated them, because they are not of the world.', (Jn 17:14), and 'if you were of the world [like the billions of oblivious 'batteries'] then the would would love its own; but because I [Jesus] chose you OUT of the world, therefore the world hates you.' (Jn 15:19). I've seen many who trust in Christ be surprised when their former 'friends' suddenly turn cold toward them. And as somebody mentioned way earlier in these threads [I think?] it's interesting how that always seems to happen when Jesus Christ is discussed. After all, Jesus said, "you will be hated by ALL on account of MY name." (Matt. 10:22) Jesus! Jesus! Jesus! (Excuse me, just felt like being hated! ) As for Cypher's choice: "whoever makes himself a friend of the world [like the Matrix] makes himself an enemy of God." (Jas. 4:4) As Morpheus basically told Neo via cellphone while Neo was trying to escape the agents in his office: "There are only two ways to go. UP (!).or in THEIR custody." No neutral ground! 3. "Morpheus and crew pluck drowning Neo and lift him into the light": Man, if the world already hates those who have unplugged, those freed people don't need to add more hate for each other! It would have been sad if those on Morpheus' ship spent all their time slashing at each other rather than saving humanity. How important that those who have taken the 'red' pill concentrate on lifting each other into the light (like Morpheus' hoist of Neo), building each other up (like Morpheus reconstructing Neo's body), feeding each other (like Trinity bringing dinner to Neo), and equipping one another for war (like Tank cybertraining Neo.) (There's that 'partner' stuff again, Simplex.) Whee! jim.wyatt@gmf.org tracer posted 05-14-99 11:48 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (tracer bows on hands and knees before jimw) We're not worthy! We're not worthy! [Image] 12321 posted 05-14-99 11:54 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- jim: I'm enjoying you and *petra* and tracer honing this perspective. It's beautiful! An aside, though: Only a few of my oldest friends call me Skocko. [scotch-ko] Thanks for the auxiliary smile. I posted this other part in the religion as science fiction thread. Though y'all would like it too. ----- ----- ----- The following is from Jeffrey Satinover's Cracking the Bible Code: ...The research began long ago as the speculation of mystics, but ended as science of the highest caliber. The reality it hints at encompasses both. The story begins with an an ancient and mysterious tradition among the Jews concerning the Torah -- the first five books of the Bible, which form the core of Judaism, and are sacred to Christians and Muslims as well. This tradition claims that, unlike all other books of scripture -- and unlike any other sacred text from any other place in the world, at any time -- the Torah alone was not merely inspired, it was dictated directly by God to Moses in a precise letter-by-letter sequence. Entirely forgotten by the larger world, this strange tradition is not widely known nowadays even among Jews. Yet for many of those learned in Judaism and faithful to its tenets, the strict veracity of such claims is not in doubt. They maintain, to this day, that the legend of letter-by-letter transmission of the Torah was passed down by word of mouth for millennia, from the time of the actual event, precisely fifty days after the Exodus from Egypt. Only much later was the claim committed to writing. And there is more. It is also said that into the precise sequence of letters, there is encrypted information... For example, on October 6, 1981, President Anwar Sadat of Egypt was assassinated in a conspiracy of army officers. Select audiences around the world were shown a series of decryptions from Genesis with details of the assassination: the name of the target, the date, the setting, the means, and much else besides. Even the first and last name of the assassin himself, "Chaled Islambooli," was shown... The Israeli researchers were under growing pressure to place their findings on solid scientific footing. So they did, submitting a large, rigorously controlled sample of similar arrays to high-level peer-reviewed journals of statistics. Their paper could easily have been dismissed out of hand, so outrageous were its implications.... Scientists, statisticians, and mathematicians from Harvard, Yale, and Carnegie-Mellon universities sought to find flaws; none could.... What [the Israeli researchers] claimed to have found -- and seemed to have demonstrated to exacting standards -- was this: that precise details not just about large-scale events, but from the lives of a whole set of individuals could be found encoded in the Book of Genesis. ----- ----- ----- Even though I read the Book, I thought this story was too absurd to be true. After a few months of ridiculing the notion of codes in the Bible, I finally began to examine the evidence. If this information was contained in a radio signal from the stars, like in Sagan's novel, it'd be front page news, but because it's in one of those "religious" books it's largely ignored. I'd like to know what you intelligent folk think. I ask: What if... What if it's true? What would that mean to you? ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com jim w posted 05-14-99 01:49 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tracer: Oh, puh-leeeze! [Image] The only reason anybody's ever ducked before me was because I needed a breath mint. Also, Rev. 22:9. 12321: (Sorry for the mis-tag earlier!) Just a momentary pause from "Matrix" discussion (don't run away, folks, we'll get back to Matrix!): Regarding the Bible codes, 12321 asks, "What if it's true? What would that mean to you?" You also asked for intelligent folks to reply - but do be it ok if I tries too? [Image] Yes, the codes are indeed fascinating. I've heard about them for some years now, seen Grant Jeffrey's stuff, Yakov's book (was that right name?), etc. (You might like www.khouse.org for 'code' stuff & lots of other mystic angles re: the Bible?) BUT, I think an OVER-focus on any secondary phenomena - the codes, Noah's ark, scientific evidence appearing to support creation, or whatever else we think may help 'validate God' - can be dangerous. Remember when Israelites began to actually worship the Bronze Serpent? (2 Kings 18:4). Hezekiah had to DESTROY that serpent, because it distracted from direct worship of God onto something that God once used to point to Himself! (The serpent was God's 'picture' of Jesus taking our sins, John 3:14; looking to that in faith was what saved a person.) I do NOT think the codes are necessary as something that will suddenly 'validate' the Bible, no more so than if people find Noah's ark, or whatever. The Bible is just as true and valid to past generations who knew nothing of 'codes' as it is to us today. Such 'codes' would be 'residual evidence' in my life at this point. After trusting Christ, God has done a major and miraculous personal overhaul of me - from a 'hate machine' to a person who cares - and shown me Himself in many other ways. "My sheep know My voice." - and what a sweet voice, when I tune my wayward ears to listen. Still learning! And I don't like to rely on 'signs and wonders' to prove things (that's what a wicked generation looks for anyway! Matt. 16:4) even though God has let me see and do a few firsthand on themission field for the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here's how I see things: Though God shows His 'fingerprints' in the natural at times by things hard to explain, I believe that in the Spiritual arena he is broadcasting 100%, and every soul can hear Him loud and clear. It is to THAT signal that I think we will be accountable! People won't stand before God and say, "Well, I just never did investigate [codes, etc.] enough..". They will have to say, "Despite Your constant witness to my spirit of the truth, I did not yield to your beckon, thus I rejected your Son Jesus Christ." (Reference: God draws people to Jesus - John 6:44 and 6:65, God bears witness to us of the Truth and His Son to men - Romans. 1:18, 1 John 5:5-9). Yes, I do have utmost respect for the Bible's depth. I just want to 'keep the main thing the main thing'! (I Cor. 15:1-5) Again re: the codes, I want to be careful discussing possible tangents in detail in this forum, 'lest we lose the Matrix fans. grace, jim.wyatt@gmf.org 12321 posted 05-14-99 03:13 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mis-tag? Shoot, now I'm back to bein' a number again... The code info and request for response was mainly for the "show me" crowd in that other thread. For whatever reason, I've been given an understanding of this stuff. I get the distinct impression that I'm supposed to do something with it. [but I sure didn't think the folk in this thread needed to see it to believe] If it brings someone to the Word, then, imho, it's worth the effort. Grant Jeffrey's "The Signature of God" is an extremely superficial look at the codes. I'd like to be able to recommend it, but, in all honesty, it distorts the issue terribly. [I'm certain it's unintentional, btw] Not to try and get in the last word, [so, please feel free to reply] but to term a massive, multi-layered wealth of information ENCRYPTED BY THE AUTHOR HIMSELF a "secondary phenomena" is puzzling. There might be a reason that the Big Guy stuck a message in the message. And there might be a reason it's surfacing now. Might just be a watermark and nothing more. Might be a signal someone needs to hear. Might be both. Might be more. Anyway, sorry for the detour. I won't go there again unless someone asks. ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com jim w posted 05-14-99 07:53 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "FREE YOUR MIND" - Oh yeah? Let's play with that! "The Matrix" stirs humanist creed with Christian allegory, giving a mixed message that is easily twisted into darkness. Morpheus informs Neo: "You are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a PRISON that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind." Agent Smith confirms it: "I hate this place.this PRISON." It is this 'prison' from which Neo and pals hope to free people. (To allegorize in Christianity, this can be the prison of this fallen world, into which all people are born as slaves of sin.) But although Neo can be typed as both as Christian or Messiah, his message - and that of Morpheus - tends to wax humanist: 1) Morpheus: Do you believe in fate, Neo? Neo: No. Morpheus: Why not? Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life. 2) Morpheus gives Neo plenty of 'free your mind' pep talk. 3) At the end of the movie, Neo makes a little speech, including: "I'm going to show these people.a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible." Regarding fate, control, destiny, and all that, I guess Neo would hate Proverbs 16:9: "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Man will ALWAYS be under God's control: "in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ORDAINED for me, when as yet there was not one of them" - Psalm 139:16. Let's broaden that to a worldwide spectrum: "And God made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their APPOINTED times, and the BOUNDARIES of their habitation." Acts 17:26. (Sounds like 'controls' to me!) Or, we might as well go to the 'final frontier' as God asks: "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth a constellation in its season?" (Job 38:31,32). You'll have no trouble finding scores of verses detailing God's infinite control over creation, including every human. In short, "in Him [Christ] ALL things hold together." Col. 1:17. The horrible mistake of man is to believe that being free from God's control or presence - if that were even possible! - would be the key to happiness. After all, the choice in the garden of Eden, to want to do things our way, was the downfall of humanity. Like Satan, man has always hated God's sovereign 'controls', preferring a blind path of self-determinism, even though that path kills (Prov. 14:12). Neo wants to free humans from prison - but free them into what? Well, let's hover just a bit more in Christianity (hang on!), then bring it all together with how it fits - or doesn't? - in "The Matrix". Interesting that Christianity has both states of freedom and slavery simultaneously. Regarding freedom, a person who has trusted in Jesus as God's Son and means of salvation has been set free (John 8:36 'the Son shall make you free') from: - sin (Rom. 6:7) - the law of sin (Rom. 8:2) - the law of death (Rom. 8:2) - eventually, the fallen 'body of this death' (Rom. 7:26) - the Law system of Moses (Rom. 7:6) - and much more, including this world system (Gal. 6:14)! But at the same time, by choice of faith in the Messiah, a Christian is also making himself a slave: - a slave to righteousness (Rom. 6:6) - a slave of Christ (Eph. 6:6, Col. 4:12, MANY other refs, especially if you include 'bondslave' or 'bond-servant') In fact, a Christian is indeed "in Prison"! Watch this: "Your life is hidden with Christ, in God." (Col. 3:3) The New Testament time and again describes the Christian as being permanently positioned [imprisoned?] "in Christ." But what does all that really mean? Is there a contradiction? Let's put it this way: A Christian is a SLAVE TO LIBERTY! Think about it: A) A Christian is someone voluntarily enslaving himself to God through faith in Christ. B) God / Christ is infinite! - and He is infinitely Good! C) So...A Christian is a voluntary slave of Infinite Good! "Imprisoned in Infinity", so to speak! (Baking yer noodle?) Could you ever touch 'bars' bordering an infinite cage? Now, let's look at the big credo from "The Matrix": *** FREE YOUR MIND *** Is that a good statement? Depends on the context! Wanting to "free your mind" is good ONLY when we're talking being set free from sin, death, and a fallen world. To 'free your mind' in terms of freeing yourself to do what you wish, including sin, is NOT good - it is death! Because GOD has set up a LAW that sin brings death to you - both in this life and the hereafter. "Free your mind" is NOT good as an unlimited creed - to be free from everything, including God! God is LIFE, God is LOVE - do you want to be free from THOSE things? God has set up a single Door - Jesus Christ - by which anyone can enter God's freedom. Is God 'narrow minded'? You bet - 'the way is narrow that leads to life." Matt. 7:14. (This makes sense in the 'natural' world! You can't just 'choose' your own cure for an illness - "hey, I think I'll eat chocolate to cure myself from strep throat" - rather than accepting the 'narrow' solution of penicillin and being truly 'set free' from sickness into freedom to run-n-play! So why do folks think it is so backwards or unfair when God makes it work the same way spiritually? ) A humanist with a sinful "free your mind" attitude will spit on God's narrow Provision for total freedom. But a lost person wishing to truly be set free will obey God's plan and trust in Christ, Who in turn will "free your mind!" (.and 'blow' it as well! "Things which eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart [mind] of man - all that God has prepared for those who love Him." I Cor. 2:9) Being a Christian means ENSLAVING your mind to God and His ways, which in turn sets you FREE! CHRISTIANITY IS ENSLAVING YOURSELF TO TRUE FREEDOM IN CHRIST. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY." 2 Cor. 3:17. Want freedom? Come get it! "Let the one who wishes take the water of life [Jesus is it - John 4] WITHOUT cost!" Rev. 22:17. "The FREE gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus." Rom. 6:23b. I enslaved myself to Christ long ago. And there's no freedom like it! Oh, and lastly - yes, there will still be 'rules' in heaven: - no death, mourning, crying or pain (Rev. 21:4) - no unclean things or evil (Rev. 21:8, 21:27) - no darkness (Rev. 22:5) - no curse (Rev. 22:3) - no loneliness (Rev. 22:5) - no end! (Rev. 22:5) Count me in! I'll padlock myself to that setup any day. grace, jim.wyatt@gmf.org jim w posted 05-14-99 08:44 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gone for the weekend - looking forward to seeing more brilliant posts from you all! Have a great weekend, jim w (weekend email: lunarcat@juno.com) 12321 posted 05-14-99 09:01 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You're amazing, Jim. Have a great time! ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com acrobat posted 05-15-99 07:51 PM .----------------------------------------------------------------------- Allow me to steal a line from the movie. "Whoa!" I'm going to have to go back and read all these new postings in detail, but, from what I can tell on skimming - this last week has really provided some critical thinking here! Bravo! ------------------ He who has ears to hear, let him hear. cecilc posted 05-17-99 04:42 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow!...you go away for a couple of days and genius happens! Terrific posts, everybody. Re: Bible codes. I find the possibility of God mathematically encoding the Bible incredible. And if it is proven (and I mean beyond doubt, because that's the only way some people will accept it! And some (sadly) not even then!), then it will be, as Mike said, science meets spirituality. Now there's a concept (how about "modern miracle") for you!. The discussion of Bible codes makes me wonder if The Matrix has its version of Bible codes. The codes for Zion's mainframe computer - has anybody touched on what those codes could be representative of yet?! And, Jim, your post regarding being enslaved by Christ is really true - and a bit paradoxical. Your last act of free will - is to willingly surrender your free will! I've enjoyed reading all these later posts, guys! I look forward to more of the same! ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com 12321 posted 05-17-99 05:20 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Found myself posting about the codes over here: http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/001013.html Take a peek. ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com alien_in_a_strange_land posted 05-17-99 10:33 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- question, sort of in accordance with the "free your mind" thoughts...did anyone get the feeling during the red pill/blue pill scene, when Neo says he doesn't like the idea of fate, Morpheus says "I know exactly what you mean." did anybody toy with the idea that Morpheus was identifying, and including a silent "but"? he's a man of incredible faith, so i don't think he could deny "fate" or God's all-power. ideas? later jim w posted 05-18-99 11:56 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mike: thanx! alien: I did 'toy' with that idea, but to me Morpheus' comment is still a bit ambiguous. Is he just identifying with Neo, having once been there himself? Or is there that implied 'but'? I dunno. Re: the threads in general, it is amazing to watch this movie catalyze the proponents of relative thinking, existentialism, reality, religion, proof vs perception, etc. Hurts yer brain. jim.wyatt@gmf.org NyQ'ill posted 05-18-99 03:02 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Cecil, are you a guy or a gal? ------------------ "WHOA....." "The Matrix has you." shadrach posted 05-18-99 03:08 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a quote from a website that gives some insight as to why the name "Smith" might have been used for the main bad guy: http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/mike666.htm > > > A "Smith number" is an integer in which the sum of its digits is equal to the sum of the digits of its prime factors. 666 is a Smith number, since 666 = 2x3x3x37 while at the same time 6 + 6 + 6 = 2 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 7. < < < doo-do-do-doo... = Shadrach cecilc posted 05-18-99 05:17 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- NyQ'ill,... I'm sure everyone's waiting on pins and needles for this answer: I'm a guy! Now,....I'm curious,....the reason for the question??? Cecil ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com 12321 posted 05-22-99 07:04 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- shadrach: Cool page. Heck, quite a site actually. Thanks. It's bookmarked for future exploration. Gotta write that guy though. The second example is wrong. He states it correctly in words, but flubs the math. Witness: It is also equal to the sum of its digits plus the cubes of its digits: 666 = 6 + 6 + 6 + 63 + 63 + 63 Um, I'm just a simple guy, but them numbers don't seem to add up. [63? Where'd he get that one? Six cubed is 216, and that makes the equation work] alien_in_a_strange_land: You know, it's the WAY Morpheus says that that really makes me think. I don't hear a "silent 'but.'" [hard to say that with a straight face, the juvenile in me wants to crack a joke (pun intended)] I see a second interpretation unfold. But that's another story. Before I spout my take, I wanna hear yours. [just in case it's better] Man, who put the silly sauce on my tasty wheat this morning? ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com 12321 posted 05-22-99 07:57 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. I can't hold it in any longer. When Morpheus says. "I know exactly what you mean." I hear this echo: "No, Luke. I am your father." Holy Moly! ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com cecilc posted 05-22-99 02:43 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- My take on Morpheus' "I know exactly what you mean." statement. I got the impression that he was IDENTIFYING with Neo,...like "I've BEEN there, man, I KNOW what you're saying!" I really didn't get the impression that there was a "...but,..." implied anywhere. But,........... ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com 12321 posted 05-22-99 04:09 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Cecil: I know exactly what you mean. ------------------ mike skocko http://www.ix625.com mike@ix625.com acrobat posted 05-22-99 08:40 PM .----------------------------------------------------------------------- jimw - agree, agree agree! regarding God's control that you brought up earlier: Neo refused to believe that he might not be in control of his life (fate) even though the forces that were leading him to where he needed to go were always at work in his life! He just didn't see it! By the same token, even thought you may not want to BELIEVE that God's hand is in your life,...doesn't mean it's not there! You just don't see it for what it actually is! We name it "coincidence" or "accident" or give it some other name. ------------------ He who has ears to hear, let him hear. alien_in_a_strange_land posted 05-23-99 11:31 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- so what did i mean as far as the "silent but"... it probably is close to the identifying with Neo's position... i guess i want to say there's a but there, because i would want to say that... i know exactly what he's talking about. the whole "fate-crap" aspect of reality. and more than that, the whole situation as well. finally getting to sit down with somebody who wants to or is willing to discuss what is true. so morpheus is this guy who has spent his life, or the part of his life that matters to him, not only looking for someone in particular, but also pulling out people from the world that got pulled over their eyes. he has a purpose, a calling, and time at bat. he knows what he's doing. so here is a prospective convert that feels comfortable enough, or wants that something more bad enough, that is sharing his feelings. and morpheus hasn't forgotten where he once was, how can he, the reality he knows now has changed him in such a profound way, and he must continue to deal with the crap around him. the christian isn't supposed to sit around passively and watch the world go by. once the awareness of what has happened and what is happening sinks in there is that drive...that sense of urgency to get off your butt and do something. and morpheus is getting to do something. something he knows is big and important, and there's that rush that goes along with knowing that God has you picked out to do exactly what you're doing and just that time. he made the universe and everything in it, and he made it just for you. and just for me. there's that appearant paradox of God's plan for the individual, each and every individual, and the fact that he made it all. so maybe i'm reading to much into it, it wasn't intentional, but think of what it was like to be morpheus, a man of extreme faith, a man who has also had that faith justified, doing the work of his King. and knowing that not too long ago, in the full scope of things, he was sitting in that same chair, facing the same initially imposing God (because when you don't understand his motives, it can be scary.), making the decision to appearantly radically alter his place in the world. i guess i say all and it hinges on morpheus, and your opinion of his faith...to parallell John the Baptist...he saw Jesus, and he baptized him, and he knew he wasn't worthy... because, like morpheus, he was important (wasn't he the first man, since Adam to be born full of the Holy Spirit?)...but an even better parallel would be of God to the person about to make the commitment to be a believer. as simply as morpheus "knows" how Neo feels, God knows exactly what Neo ws feeling. on a level so far beyond shared experience that there is no need for the "silent but." it's late. i must sleep. just my thoughts...can't wait to hear what you guys have to say. blessings 1 Peter 1:17-19 "Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." drall posted 05-24-99 09:04 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey! I just wanted to say Jim W, that long post, very good! Thoroughly enjoyed it. very excellent. jim w posted 05-26-99 11:53 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- acrobat: true! &Mac220; it would be fascinating to know the extent of control over all of the things we deem random alien: good thoughts on that stuff! I hadn't given that moment near the reflection you did; enjoyed your perceptions drall: thanx, glad it helped Scene that got edited from the movie: Trinity: It is the question, Neo.the question that drives us. Neo: Is Cecil a guy or a gal? NyQ'ill: It's like a splinter in my mind, driving me mad. Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Cecil: Im a guy! Morpheus: You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees, because he is expecting to wake up. Cecil: Oh, yeah? I know kung fu! Morpheus: Show me. (bam whap thud whif whif thwock) Morpheus: (bleeding) Okay, okay. You're definitely a guy. jim.wyatt@gmf.org cecilc posted 05-26-99 01:18 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim,..... You are unbelievable! You know,....that scene's just gonna HAFTA be on my site somewhere! Hey, NyQ'ill,...where are ya? We need to rehearse! Cecil ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com jim w posted 05-26-99 02:51 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Orbiting the "Messianic" theme. Man voluntarily created the machines/AI. In an effort to destroy his rebellious product, man 'scorched the sky'. which, of course, would destroy life from the planet &Mac220; including man. Interesting how our own efforts to clean up our mess fail, underscoring all the more our need for a Savior unlike us. Or how 'bout this angle: Man creates AI. Of course, machines only operate how we program them to operate. So the AI construct was a product of encoded human logic - man's wisdom personified. Perhaps a literal portrayal of human wisdom killing us? 'There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end is the way of death.' (Prov. 14:12) 'The wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.' (1 Cor. 3:19) 'Professing to be wise, they became fools.' (Romans 1:22) '[had they had God's wisdom] they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' (I Cor. 2:7) Another view: Machines, devoid of pride and given strictly rules of logic, examined the data regarding their programmers and found mankind despicable. The collective knowledge of man concluded that man deserved death. We often won't condemn ourselves &Mac220; pride blinds &Mac220; but given an unbiased observer and honest set of data, the judgment is obvious? jim.wyatt@gmf.org cecilc posted 05-29-99 02:32 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- alien,.... Just got back to read YOUR post up there! Very nicely done,....and I don't think you're reading any more deeply than any of the rest of us have on occasion. I agree with you also,...I think Morpheus saw the Oracle's message to him coming true in that first meeting with Neo. Morpheus was already convinced that Neo was The One - he was excited about it and realized that he was The Teacher! He knew it was up to him (Morpheus) to show Neo "the door", so to speak! ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com OnFyre4God posted 05-31-99 01:01 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- It has been a long, long, time. . . I must say that it is good to be out of Texas. Especially Dallas! I got back home to AZ about two weeks ago and have been very busy interning at the local youth center. We call it The Stir (2 Tim 1:6) We will have a website soon. I'll let you all know when it's ready. Way off the subject, but I am obligated to give this ministry "props" It is because of this place that I was even offered the red pill after all. . . A friend of mine drew an interesting parallel about the steak = 30 pieces of silver the other day. Has anyone mentioned this yet? 12321: Once upon a time, in a land far far away you mentioned the window washers. Would you elaborate on this tidbit please? jim w: My My My My MY MY MY!!! Incredible! Can't wait to see more of that stuff! You have one great mind my friend! Do you have a homepage? My last post was rushed as I hurried off to see the Mummy. Don't waste your time or your money. It was no good. Although I highly recommend the PostMan to anyone who has yet to see it! This post is rated HIC (Highly Irrelevent in Content) Just attempting to feel my way around again now that I'm back. Love you all! ------------------ Repent! The Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand! Only One God gralhazul posted 06-02-99 05:01 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Cecil ! Many thanks for your comments and support for my thread. It seems really that I was the only one to link NEO to Moses (in Exodus)and as this might have been accepted by all, I am just living my thread there and joining yours (more fun here for sure). I got your point about how this film is Messianic and not THE Messianic film. And we both agree about the "nothing new under the sun" proviso. Now let's see what sorts of "rabbits" we can make jump of the holes ... Take the Orthodox tradition. "Christ and Mary. (In Orthodox tradition) The ecumenical councils of the first millennium defined the basic Christian doctrines on the Trinity, on the unique Person and the two natures of Christ and on his two wills, expressing fully the authenticity and fullness of his divinity and his humanity" We see that NEO came as a plain man. A hacker what its even more ... modern. Then he toils and stumbles, becomes perplexed, suffers ... to the point of almost saying the famous words "Eli Eli lamma sabachtani" ... to finally becoming able to "decode", which fits the Orthodox tradition, doesn't it? The son of God who as a plain man, is able to suffer, and only redeems is deity by suffering to the point of again becoming part of the Trinity = ie., reading the codes(surely with a real Trin on his side ... the film Trin I mean) Again, I say that there is no such blue pill or red pill like the GOLDEN PILL (=The Matrix) which as a film, has just made it possible for every denomination to claim their stand on it. Good day to everyone Denis (from far Brazil) ------------------ Gralhazul jim w posted 06-04-99 10:29 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- OnFyre: Good to see you back (and thanx, btw &Mac220; glad you liked the stuff). I don't have a personal homepage ("not yet."), but the org I work for has a crude one at www.gmf.org. Denis: Welcome! Just got my Brazil visa processed today &Mac220; I like your country and am looking forward to getting to come down again. Interesting thoughts on paralleling Neo to Moses in your other thread &Mac220; when Neo says "I'm nobody &Mac220; why is this happening to me", I can picture Moses at that burning bush saying the same things. (If Matrix 2 parallels the 10 plagues of Egypt on the AI, I may just camp out for tickets.) grace, jim.wyatt@gmf.org jim w posted 06-09-1999 11:01 AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm.5 days since anyone posted here. See? See? I told ya if people discuss Jesus too much, everyone runs away [Image] Actually, I've been putting my energies into a big ol' writeup on the Christian allegorical angles.hoping to finish sometime this millenium. (or maybe within a week, if I can stop writing silly haikus ) OnFyre: About that steak equaling 30 pieces of silver.I bet it cost at least 30 (silver) dollars! Denis: Hoped you would write some more.your viewpoints were fresh! I hadn't even thought about the 'Moses' angle. I hear echoes in here. jim.wyatt@gmf.org wjohnson posted 06-09-1999 12:20 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Notice that the matrix code has every letter of every language -- Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, numerals, etc. But also notice that they are inverted. You are not looking at a monitor screen; you are looking from inside the monitor. You are inside the computer (the matrix), and that is why the code is inverted. So the matrix code represents all kindreds, nations, people and TONGUES that will one day worship God as it says in Isaiah 2 and Revelation 5. Also I believe in the mixed metaphors -- Neo as new creature in Christ and as Christ himself. Notice that this is Christ's first coming -- not in the same order as the Bible. He dies and rises again, he enters hell and becomes sin (by entering agent Smith instead of simply destroying him), he has the keys to hell and death (the matrix code), and he ascends to heaven at the end. In his Great Commission, he says this is just the beginning. The conquest of the matrix begins with one man, Jesus Christ, but it will expand across the globe because there are no borders or boundaries (there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave or free). Instead of rules and regulations, Neo as the new creature in Christ has internalized the two greatest commandments. Instead standing before his employer reluctantly agreeing to follow the rules, he desires with all his heart to give his life for his brother, Morpheus, and for God the Father, Morpheus (Tank to Morpheus: "You're more than just a friend; you're a father.") He obeys the oracle (the Word of God) to consider others more important than himself, to lay down his life for his friend, and in that he finds his specialness, his calling, his true self. By the way, nowhere in scripture is just one individual referred to as AntiChrist. It is a spirit. I John. And, of course, its hatred of God (the stench of man, the image of God, and of God, whom Morpheus also represents) pervades the Satanic matrix. Morpheus could be 3 figures -- John the Baptist preparing the way for Christ, the Father who calls, births, and trains Neo, and mankind in general whom Neo-Christ enters the world (the matrix) to give his life to save from the agents (Satan and his demons). An amazing movie. jim w posted 06-09-1999 01:24 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (hi, wjohnson! Interesting thinking! It shows just how many different ways this movie can be interpreted allegorically.) Loved wjohnson's thought on 'all tongues' re: the Matrix symbols. Neo's statement at the end can be the 'neither Jew nor Greek.' statement if viewing the movie Messianically (is that a word? ) or as a humanist statement if viewed as an antiestablishment piece (see the 'free your mind' post further back in this thread for more discussion of that viewpoint.) So far, I think these threads have compared the Oracle to the Word of God, the Old Testament, and the Holy Spirit. She's a tough character to work into a Christian allegory because of her obvious pagan and eastern overtones (esp. Delphic oracle&Mac220; the original script even had a temple in front of her kitchen, complete with zodiac staircase, etc.) Cool point about Neo 'becoming sin' by entering the agent! The events of Neo's death and that 'entering' happen close enough together to hint at that link. Good job! Would have been even better if that was how the agent killed Neo &Mac220; by morphing around him to envelop and crushing him. That way, the sin aspect could have been related to the death. As it is, there's a little timing problem (it's just a movie) in that Neo is already demonstrating victorious post-resurrection power (fighting the agent with one hand, etc.) before entering him. (Wjohnson, this next bit is not in direct reply to your post, but to the 'hell' topic in general) Since the idea of Christ descending into hell has come up before in these 'Messiah' threads, here's my take on that: Once Christ died, he did not suffer further in hell. Christ was in a victorious state already, just taking the keys of death and hell from a trembling, defeated Satan. (There is also debate on the idea that He 'set the captives free' from Abrahams' bosom at this time as well.) Christ indeed did become our sin on the cross. (I Pet. 2:24, 2 Cor. 5:21) But as far as Christ suffering in hell afterward, I disagree with that concept, here's a few reasons: 1) Jesus said from the cross, "It is finished!" not "well, phase 1 completed.but phase 2 is really gonna hurt!" 2) Jesus said "Tetelestai" &Mac220; literally 'the debt was paid in full'. He did not say, "Well that will pay 70% of it... okay, now burn me for a while to make up the other 30%" 3) Jesus said to the thief beside Him, "TODAY (not '3 days from now') you will be with me IN PARADISE (not hell!) 4) When Jesus was dying, he said, "Father, into YOUR hands I commit My Spirit!", not "Satan, now YOU get to have Me for a while." 5) Other refs, such as Colossians 2:14-15: "[Jesus] having cancelled out the certificate of debt.against us.He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When he had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, having triumphed." Or also, "having made peace by the blood of His cross." (Col. 1:20). Speaking of atonement, I don't really see that concept in the movie; it's one of the critical shortcomings of the "Neo as Messiah" allegory. jim.wyatt@gmf.org jim w posted 06-09-1999 02:49 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wjohnson.wow!! Playing off of that. Loved the ideas re: 'tongues', considering 'rules and controls' to represent the law vs. having the law internalized via grace, the 'Great Commission' angle of the last speech, etc. Great! I would vouch for 1 more role option for 'Morpheus'; he could also act as simply another Christian &Mac220; both as 'evangelist' when bringing Neo to the red pill, and 'discipler' when training Neo. When Tank calls Morpheus 'a father', that also reminds me of the apostle Paul calling Timothy his 'true child in the faith'. And as for the 'father and friend' aspects simultaneously, God is not only Father to a Christian, but also his 'friend' (John 15:15). This film can also be viewed socially, from an antiestablishment perspective. In that case, Neo's speech at the end about no rules or boundaries takes on an anarchist or humanist tint. (see the 'free your mind' post earlier in this thread for takes on that angle) So far, I think these threads have compared the Oracle to the Word of God, the Old Testament, and the Holy Spirit. She's a tough character to pull into a Christian allegory because of her obvious pagan and eastern overtones (esp. Delphic oracle&Mac220; the 1996 script version even had a temple entryway leading to her, complete with zodiac staircase.) Cool concept about Neo 'becoming sin' by entering the agent! The events of Neo's death and that 'entering' happen close enough together to link them together. I was thinking.it would have been even better if that was how the agent killed Neo &Mac220; by morphing around him to envelop and crushing him? That way, 'sin' could have been directly related to Neo's death. As it is, there's a little timing problem (it's just a movie) in that Neo is already showing victorious post-resurrection power (fighting the agent with one hand, etc.) before entering him. (wjohnson, this next bit is not in direct reply to your bit about 'entering hell' but to that entire topic in general, since it has come up before in these 'Messiah' threads, and it is interesting) Here's my 'hell' take: Once Christ died, He did not suffer further in hell to finish paying for our sins. Christ was in a victorious state already, just ******ing the keys of death and hell from a trembling, defeated Satan. (There are also difficult hints of Christ descending to take up Old Testament saints from their holding place in the 'Abraham's Bosom' area as well.) Christ indeed did become our sin on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24, 2 Cor. 5:21). But as far as Christ suffering in hell after the cross, I disagree. Here's a few reasons: 1) Jesus said from the cross, "It is finished!" not "well, phase 1 is completed but phase 2 is really gonna hurt!" 2) Jesus said "Tetelestai" &Mac220; literally 'the debt was paid in full'. He did not say, "Well, my blood will pay 70% of it...now burn me for a while to make up the other 30%" 3) Jesus said to the thief beside Him, "TODAY (not "after 3 days in hell'') you will be with me IN PARADISE (not hell!) 4) When Jesus was dying, he said, "Father, into YOUR hands I commit My Spirit!", not "Satan, now YOU get to have Me for a while." 5) Other refs, such as Colossians 2:14-15: "[Jesus] having cancelled out the certificate of debt.against us.He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When he had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, having triumphed." Or also, "having made peace by the blood of His cross." (Col. 1:20). The victory was completely won at the cross. (anyway, just a few thoughts on a 'hot topic' ) Speaking of atonement at the cross. I don't see a clear concept of 'atonement' in the film; it's one of the critical shortcomings of the "Neo as Messiah" allegory. 'Atonement' is not just simply saving someone's life. For example, if you were to push me out of an oncoming vehicle's way, but you got killed in the process, yes, you saved my life &Mac220; a noble thing (and I thank you, postmortem! ) But, you did not 'atone' for me &Mac220; in other words, to pay the penalty for the wrongs I did against God. Neo and Morpheus each were willing to give their lives for one another, and this is a Christlike characteristic of selfless love. But I don't see Neo or Morpheus 'paying for the sin debt of someone else'. Jesus said that He came to give His life as a 'ransom' for many. jim.wyatt@gmf.org jim w posted 06-09-1999 02:55 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- arrrghhh...victim of the double-post. actually, the second post was the one I intended, the first had some bad word choices. oh, well... jim w posted 06-09-1999 03:24 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- man - I think the agents must be in the system! The word that was auto-censored by the bulletin board from my last long post was s- n-a-t-c- hed, as in 'grabbed'. that second post also had a few extra bits that the first post didn't. (Cecil, you realize that we're gonna need to go to thread part 6 soon! And we can't stop there because most folks link 6 to being a bad number and 7 to being "God's" number, or whatever, which is only fitting for a "Messianic" thread? So we gotta go to at least seven parts? [Image] grace, jim.wyatt@gmf.org wjohnson posted 06-09-1999 03:57 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that Neo's speech at the end is difficult and, in isolation, can be interpreted as a humanistic, anarchist spiel. However, I cannot accept that because of the rest of the movie. There is simply too much Christian parallel to ignore. And in the actual context of this particular movie, the emphasis is on spiritual warfare. So, what is the hero-Christ to say at the end? Go into all the matrix and preach the gospel of Satanic illusion controlling you? I don't think that fits into the movie. And it would be too direct a comparison. I like the way the writers made the imagery clear for those with eyes to see, but not so clear that the unsaved would blow it off as another attempt to evangelize. The emphasis on spiritual warfare also explains the lack of atonement. Of course, Jesus paid the legal debt of mankind on the cross. But the Apostles Creed of the historic orthodox faith states that "...He descended into hell, the 3d day he arose again from the dead, he ascended into heaven." I do not understand that but I believe it because I think the old testament prophecies indicate that the messiah would not be left in Sheol or hell or the grave. I don't know what he was doing down there. Interestingly, Tank gave him three locations to try to reach a phone. The last was in Room 303, the same room in which the movie began with Trinity on the phone with Morpheus talking about getting Neo out of the matrix. I imagine there's a reason for all that. I think there is the hint of atonement though, but it has to do with Neo as new believer. He was a law breaker in the matrix, selling illegal software, and he, according to his employer, authority figure, thought he was special, that the rules didn't apply to him. In that way, he is like Adam and Eve who wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They thought they could disobey God and, when the serpent said, "You shall not die," they believed him thinking that the law of sin and death didn't apply to them. So, Neo was a sinner, and the Christian knows that he cannot be born again without atonement. To be saved, Neo had to swallow a blood-red capsule (the blood of Jesus, communion). When fighting in the subway, he spits up blood, and Trinity says, "He's killing him." Then, when Neo is shot in Room 303, he puts his hand down, where he has been pierced by the bullet, and gets blood on his palm (no nails but blood). He then really dies. He doesn't fall asleep or go into a coma. He really dies. And, as has been noted already in this thread, the love of Trinity calls him back to life. (Trinity is also like the woman at the tomb. Notice she is the only one with Neo when he rises again.) So, while secondary to the messiah as conqueror/deliverer from captivity, I think there is still some atonement there. It's just no upfront. As for the Oracle, the Delphi message is definitely there, but did the Oracle at Delphi have such a clear moral message for those who came to her. I find the Oracle in the movie to be clearly preaching the love of one's brother more than oneself. That gives her message enough Christian substance for me to overlook the Greek mysticism part. cecilc posted 06-09-1999 04:23 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone,... Please post further discussions at: The Matrix as Messiah Movie Book VI http://wbboards.warnerbros.com/ultimate/files/Forum68/HTML/001206.html Thanks to one and all! Cecil ------------------ Reach me at: http://awesomehouse.com/matrix "The Matrix as Messiah Movie" cecil@awesomehouse.com Matrix |